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	<title>Comments on: Frameworks vs. Toolkits</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?feed=rss2&#038;p=2358" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358</link>
	<description>Bill Gates Touched My Mac Book Pro</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 16:48:34 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Learning AS3 &#124; no.strings.required</title>
		<link>http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-17208</link>
		<dc:creator>Learning AS3 &#124; no.strings.required</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-17208</guid>
		<description>[...] too far removed and indeed at odds to our overall visual and environmental considerations. Indeed, this post seems to echo many of our thoughts and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] too far removed and indeed at odds to our overall visual and environmental considerations. Indeed, this post seems to echo many of our thoughts and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Learning AS3 &#171; jam.games</title>
		<link>http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12007</link>
		<dc:creator>Learning AS3 &#171; jam.games</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Apr 2010 22:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12007</guid>
		<description>[...] too far removed and indeed at odds to our overall visual and environmental considerations. Indeed, this post seems to echo many of our thoughts and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] too far removed and indeed at odds to our overall visual and environmental considerations. Indeed, this post seems to echo many of our thoughts and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MartÃ­n FernÃ¡ndez Lombana</title>
		<link>http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12006</link>
		<dc:creator>MartÃ­n FernÃ¡ndez Lombana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:27:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12006</guid>
		<description>Hi Keith,

I was looking recently for info in Flash Game&#039;s patterns, and google didn&#039;t took me to your blog, but I knew I&#039;ll find useful information here.

I would like to know what is your pattern of choice (for example for the Gravity Pods 2). I was wondering whether an mvc pattern is suitable for a game (for example your Gravity Pods 2, or any other game like in fact...).

As i&#039;ve seen in the pure MVC site this game has been done with pureMvc: http://www.generationgreen.co.uk/Games/eco-rangers/

I am just trying to figure out what base structure/pattern to use (not any framework/toolkit itself - i agree with ian, and I also like to control my own creation without relaying much in 3th party frameworks-) . I would love to have information about how you structure your games or what do you recommend as you have a remarkable experience in this field.

Thank you very much,

MartÃ­n.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Keith,</p>
<p>I was looking recently for info in Flash Game&#8217;s patterns, and google didn&#8217;t took me to your blog, but I knew I&#8217;ll find useful information here.</p>
<p>I would like to know what is your pattern of choice (for example for the Gravity Pods 2). I was wondering whether an mvc pattern is suitable for a game (for example your Gravity Pods 2, or any other game like in fact&#8230;).</p>
<p>As i&#8217;ve seen in the pure MVC site this game has been done with pureMvc: <a href="http://www.generationgreen.co.uk/Games/eco-rangers/" rel="nofollow">http://www.generationgreen.co.uk/Games/eco-rangers/</a></p>
<p>I am just trying to figure out what base structure/pattern to use (not any framework/toolkit itself &#8211; i agree with ian, and I also like to control my own creation without relaying much in 3th party frameworks-) . I would love to have information about how you structure your games or what do you recommend as you have a remarkable experience in this field.</p>
<p>Thank you very much,</p>
<p>MartÃ­n.</p>
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		<title>By: Iain</title>
		<link>http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12005</link>
		<dc:creator>Iain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2009 08:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12005</guid>
		<description>Sorry for the bumpage, but just want to say that I agree with everything you say here Keith. I hate to rely on 3rd party frameworks because you are carrying around a lot of baggage that can slow you down as much as it speeds you up. Also, you never really feel like you fully &quot;own&quot; the project or know exactly what it is doing. If, for example, I wanted to port one of my Flash games to another platform (say Microsoft XNA) it is as simple as porting a simplified version of MovieClip (with x, y, rotation, scale, perhaps a simple form of gotoAndPlay) and then the rest of my classes can be ported practically line-by-line to c#. Now imagine I&#039;d used PushButtonEngine. I would have no hope of porting there whole framework, so I would essentially be starting from scratch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the bumpage, but just want to say that I agree with everything you say here Keith. I hate to rely on 3rd party frameworks because you are carrying around a lot of baggage that can slow you down as much as it speeds you up. Also, you never really feel like you fully &#8220;own&#8221; the project or know exactly what it is doing. If, for example, I wanted to port one of my Flash games to another platform (say Microsoft XNA) it is as simple as porting a simplified version of MovieClip (with x, y, rotation, scale, perhaps a simple form of gotoAndPlay) and then the rest of my classes can be ported practically line-by-line to c#. Now imagine I&#8217;d used PushButtonEngine. I would have no hope of porting there whole framework, so I would essentially be starting from scratch.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Lorent</title>
		<link>http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12004</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Lorent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 11:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12004</guid>
		<description>A fellow developer of mine once said: &quot;I like PureMVC so much, because anything is possible&quot;. This hits the nail on the head (as we say in the Netherlands...). PureMVC just provides the services concerned with the MVC design pattern, nothing else. You can use the provided functionality, but since it&#039;s completely programmed to interfaces, you don&#039;t have to. Consequently, we never ran into frameworkitis. The value of a framework is mostly proven when working with a team of developers on the same project. More over, if you agree on certain conventions in coding a project, every developer can step in and be working right away on the project instead of reading code for hours. In some cases we work with 5 or 6 developers on a project and to be frank, without using a framework, this could quickly and easily turn into a nightmare. And what about efficiency. Using a framework combined with coding conventions, a project can be done in less time. And what about maintaining a project. The planning department or project management should be able to let any developer on the team do the work, not just the original developers. All things considering, a framework (any framework the team is comfortable with btw) is a must in my opinion. Just make sure the framework does what it should do: provide the basic structure. Add libraries, toolkits and the likes for project specific functionality. And standardize the way you setup a project. Everyone involved will have less work and it will cause less errors. Most of the times this works for a large percentage of the projects a company does. Ok, and make sure at least one developer on the team is a OO ninja.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A fellow developer of mine once said: &#8220;I like PureMVC so much, because anything is possible&#8221;. This hits the nail on the head (as we say in the Netherlands&#8230;). PureMVC just provides the services concerned with the MVC design pattern, nothing else. You can use the provided functionality, but since it&#8217;s completely programmed to interfaces, you don&#8217;t have to. Consequently, we never ran into frameworkitis. The value of a framework is mostly proven when working with a team of developers on the same project. More over, if you agree on certain conventions in coding a project, every developer can step in and be working right away on the project instead of reading code for hours. In some cases we work with 5 or 6 developers on a project and to be frank, without using a framework, this could quickly and easily turn into a nightmare. And what about efficiency. Using a framework combined with coding conventions, a project can be done in less time. And what about maintaining a project. The planning department or project management should be able to let any developer on the team do the work, not just the original developers. All things considering, a framework (any framework the team is comfortable with btw) is a must in my opinion. Just make sure the framework does what it should do: provide the basic structure. Add libraries, toolkits and the likes for project specific functionality. And standardize the way you setup a project. Everyone involved will have less work and it will cause less errors. Most of the times this works for a large percentage of the projects a company does. Ok, and make sure at least one developer on the team is a OO ninja.</p>
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		<title>By: On Toolkits vs Frameworks: Why not both and how OpenPyro does it &#124; code zen</title>
		<link>http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12003</link>
		<dc:creator>On Toolkits vs Frameworks: Why not both and how OpenPyro does it &#124; code zen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Aug 2009 00:31:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12003</guid>
		<description>[...] catching up on Keith Peter&#8217;s blog and one of the posts that really caught my attention was on Toolkits vs Frameworks. The defining difference between the two, as Keith quotes Gamma, is &#8220;Toolkits do not attempt [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] catching up on Keith Peter&#8217;s blog and one of the posts that really caught my attention was on Toolkits vs Frameworks. The defining difference between the two, as Keith quotes Gamma, is &#8220;Toolkits do not attempt [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mathieu Gosselin</title>
		<link>http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12002</link>
		<dc:creator>Mathieu Gosselin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 09:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12002</guid>
		<description>Very interesting article.

I think things depends on the nature of the project really. For most flash websites or simple games you don&#039;t need a big framework, this will just be over-engineered counter productive.
For software development with a big team and long terms projects you probably needs a set of rules everyone comply to, else it will be total chaos, but also to be reasonable with it, else it will be a dictatorship and also counter-productive!

We just want exactly what we need, when we need it! It is all about keeping balance between too few and too much.

In my mind the more code is written the more difficult it will be to conceptualize it as a whole and manage it. After all programming and OOP is just the way we convert our ideas into the machine. So it is important to keep things simple. Which means we don&#039;t lose control. And it makes things much simpler for to have a set of small components we can rely on. So Thumbs up to the toolkit!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting article.</p>
<p>I think things depends on the nature of the project really. For most flash websites or simple games you don&#8217;t need a big framework, this will just be over-engineered counter productive.<br />
For software development with a big team and long terms projects you probably needs a set of rules everyone comply to, else it will be total chaos, but also to be reasonable with it, else it will be a dictatorship and also counter-productive!</p>
<p>We just want exactly what we need, when we need it! It is all about keeping balance between too few and too much.</p>
<p>In my mind the more code is written the more difficult it will be to conceptualize it as a whole and manage it. After all programming and OOP is just the way we convert our ideas into the machine. So it is important to keep things simple. Which means we don&#8217;t lose control. And it makes things much simpler for to have a set of small components we can rely on. So Thumbs up to the toolkit!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Weekly Shared Items &#8211; 25. August, 2009 &#124; TOXIN LABS - weblog of a german design student from wuerzburg</title>
		<link>http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12001</link>
		<dc:creator>Weekly Shared Items &#8211; 25. August, 2009 &#124; TOXIN LABS - weblog of a german design student from wuerzburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 04:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12001</guid>
		<description>[...] Frameworks vs. Toolkits [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Frameworks vs. Toolkits [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Probert</title>
		<link>http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12000</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Probert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Aug 2009 08:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-12000</guid>
		<description>I suffered from intensive Frameworkitis with the Mate framework ... made me sore for days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suffered from intensive Frameworkitis with the Mate framework &#8230; made me sore for days.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Peters</title>
		<link>http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-11999</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Peters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Aug 2009 16:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bit-101.com/blog/?p=2358#comment-11999</guid>
		<description>Robin,

&quot;Using something like an off the shelf MVC framework is probably ok (if that is what you want), but you will always fight against things if they arenâ€™t custom for a project.&quot;

That&#039;s pretty much exactly what I was saying. Or trying to say. Of course, having your own framework and tweaking it per project gets around a lot of that. Of course there are pros and cons with that method too.

Anyway, I do what I can to avoid using words like &quot;right&quot; and &quot;wrong&quot; in anything development related. Everything has its pros and cons and it&#039;s a matter of weighing those to come up with a decent solution for your project. The only &quot;wrong&quot; thing is not to think about it at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin,</p>
<p>&#8220;Using something like an off the shelf MVC framework is probably ok (if that is what you want), but you will always fight against things if they arenâ€™t custom for a project.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s pretty much exactly what I was saying. Or trying to say. Of course, having your own framework and tweaking it per project gets around a lot of that. Of course there are pros and cons with that method too.</p>
<p>Anyway, I do what I can to avoid using words like &#8220;right&#8221; and &#8220;wrong&#8221; in anything development related. Everything has its pros and cons and it&#8217;s a matter of weighing those to come up with a decent solution for your project. The only &#8220;wrong&#8221; thing is not to think about it at all.</p>
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